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Thread: Random Wrestling Talk

  1. #3961

    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by boyka View Post
    Perhaps they get cooking later. I've watched about 8 episodes now, from the beginning of 1997 to just after Royal Rumble, and every Taker, Bret, Vader etc. match is just terrible. However, Michaels Vs Psycho Sid at Royal Rumble, while not specifically notable, was a fairly decent match. I do like the layers to Shawn's character with him doing heel stuff as a face.
    What exactly have you watched? I'm trying to understand what all you've seen as you have some pretty strong opinions, which is fine, but the strong opinions are a little confusing when it comes to wrestlers that have barely wrestled thus far such as HBK.

    Knowing what happens, I completely see how the double turn works at WM 13. Bret just quit the company because no one's handing him a title shot. How he can be a face acting like that, meanwhile Austin comes out right after him, talks him down, and then calls out The Undertaker. That's a complete heel / face turn there, but they are subtle and it'll be incredbile to watch their WM13 match with that in place.
    At this point in time, things were changing and practically everyone was given some shade of grey to their character. Babyfaces like Taker, Sid, Bret, and Michaels were given an edge while heels like Austin and British Bulldog were given some sympathy whether directly or because they're in a feud with a wrestler that is acting more like a heel.

    Owen Hart is your MVP in early 1997. He had a really good match with Mankind on Raw, a pair of great matches with Bulldog, some good matches with Bulldog against Furnas/Lafon, ect.

    So while there's definitely a degree of psycology in there, I'm yet to see your standard Monday night matches be anything other than extremely weak. Zach Ryder on a Monday night makes these guys look abysmal. Maybe I'm now conditioned a bit differently than it was back then. No one specifically upped their game at RR, but at the same time we had Farooq Vs Amed Johnson and Taker Vs Vader so hardly the biggest opportunities to impress.
    Vader and Taker ended up having a much better match at Canadian Stampede.

    Again though, Owen's your guy for someone producing on Raw.

    Also, because he's still very new I'm surprised to see I'm not hearing "Die Rocky Die". We get it framed that everyone hated Rocky, then he decided to work on his character. However, he's still completely a generic no-lines babyface here and the fans are already chanting for him with the commentary heavily behind him.
    Depending on where you're at, Rocky may have not even won the IC Title yet. The real hate doesn't come until he's been champion for a little bit.

  2. #3962
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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    In-ring TV quality never became consistently good in WWE until I'd say like 2011? Even if you had some periods of really good wrestling, like late 2002 SmackDown and early 2004 Raw, it was never that consistent in terms of quality for a sustained period of time. Even 2000-2001, which has probably the most talented roster WWE had, struggled for consistent in-ring quality on the weekly TV shows. It just wasn't a priority in terms of booking.

    Since 2011-today there's been a shift. A big part of that was the move to three hour Raws needing more time to fill, plus the increase in talent in your average worker. In 1997 you had guys like Farooq in 2020 you have guys like Buddy Murphy.

    I find that once you hit the Raw-era of tv, you don't find hidden gems from the likes of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels anymore. I don't think that's a discredit to them as wrestlers, it just wasn't what was needed from them anymore at that point. What they were needed for was delivering in big PPV matches, which the two of them did in spades through the 90s. I think when you're judging the talent, context is key. You aren't going to find hidden gems from them in this time period - just the stuff that is well renowned anyway. If you want to see what Bret, Vader, etc can do in terms of hidden gems and the like, your best bet is looking in the late 80s and early 90s on more obscure shows.







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  3. #3963
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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    I wouldn't call Ron Simmons an average worker to be fair but I get your point.

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  4. #3964

    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Calling Simmons an average worker, especially his time in the WWE, is a compliment.

  5. #3965
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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Calling Simmons an average worker, especially his time in the WWE, is a compliment.
    Maybe he meant he should have been called a below average worker?

    I enjoyed Simmons in WCW more than most seem to have, but his WWE stuff is pretty lacklustre. At least he had the “DAMN” thing later on, which pretty much cemented his legacy in the company.


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  6. #3966

    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Vice View Post
    Maybe he meant he should have been called a below average worker?

    I enjoyed Simmons in WCW more than most seem to have, but his WWE stuff is pretty lacklustre. At least he had the “DAMN” thing later on, which pretty much cemented his legacy in the company.
    His WCW work was more clearly average. Not among the quality workers at the time, but certainly not among the worst either. Singles wise, he rarely delivered, but it also wouldn't be too common for him to stink up the joint. For me though, Simmons spent the vast majority of his career chasing the highs he felt as a member of Doom. He never came close to having the quality of matches that he had as a member of that team.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    I can't comment on his initial WWF singles run, but as someone who started watching in 2000, did Farooq and the APA really have the opportunity to do anything notable?

    Not that I wanted to see them do anymore mind, they were fine in the role they had.


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  8. #3968

    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Postman Dave View Post
    I can't comment on his initial WWF singles run, but as someone who started watching in 2000, did Farooq and the APA really have the opportunity to do anything notable?

    Not that I wanted to see them do anymore mind, they were fine in the role they had.
    The APA wrestled a lot, but I suppose there could be an argument made that they weren't given as large of opportunities as the TLC teams received. That's not to say that they were on a level like Kaientai and just being booked on Raw was an achievement. Any time they were given a bigger opportunity, they were pretty much always the weak matches for the better teams. In a lot of ways, The APA were a team that meant the most for teams that didn't matter. Their strengths were the backstage segments.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Watching ECW pay per views and for the most part they have been pretty weak.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit View Post
    Watching ECW pay per views and for the most part they have been pretty weak.
    ECW really doesn't age well on the whole

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  11. #3971

    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit View Post
    Watching ECW pay per views and for the most part they have been pretty weak.
    If you're talking about the actual ECW PPVs, the quality in the company started to drop just before they got onto PPV. If you are interested in watching the best string of ECW PPVs, 1999 is the way to go. The booking isn't always hot, but there were plenty of good matches thanks to the likes of RVD, Lynn, Tajiri, Awesome, Tanaka, ect.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Yeah, I’ve been going chronically as far as the PPVs. 99 was my favorite thus far. The matches with Tajiri and Super Crazy have been my favorites.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Anyone have any recommendations for any pre-90s wrestling territories to check out and what years are the best? I'm on a territories binge while working part-time due to everything going on.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Mid-South (which in turn leads to tons of Houston Wrestling because they were featured heavily on it). Great matches, great feuds, great booking. There is a ton of footage as well which is key.

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by LinguisticTurn View Post
    Anyone have any recommendations for any pre-90s wrestling territories to check out and what years are the best? I'm on a territories binge while working part-time due to everything going on.
    Im not sure if you mean outside WWE. But if you are including WWE, id say 1986. Its the best year in WWE in the 80s. Its fun, great angles like Savage vs Santana or Jake Roberts vs Steamboat. Theres awesome tag team scene with the likes of Dream Team, Rougeaus, Hart Foundation, Bulldogs and near the end the Islanders.
    ROH 2003 - end of 2008 = best years of wrestling ever

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by LinguisticTurn View Post
    Anyone have any recommendations for any pre-90s wrestling territories to check out and what years are the best? I'm on a territories binge while working part-time due to everything going on.
    Memphis has a bunch of great stuff in 1982 - the Lawler vs Mantell fued, Dundee vs Brown scaffolding match, Mantell/Cobra vs Eaton/Brown, Lawler vs Flair all being highlights. 1986 was also a strong year in Memphis.

    JCP '86 through '87

    Mid-South 1985 has PEAK DiBiase greatness and also a bunch of other great shit. Must watch.

    '82 WCCW and '86 AWA also spring to mind as the best years of those territories from what I have seen

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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    What exactly have you watched? I'm trying to understand what all you've seen as you have some pretty strong opinions, which is fine, but the strong opinions are a little confusing when it comes to wrestlers that have barely wrestled thus far such as HBK.
    About the first 12 shows or something. HBK has been on the least, although his mic work was average so far. I've only seen one HVK match and it's probably the best match that's been on so far (against Sid), although that being said, I've not seen the others on PPV and perhaps in this timeline people phoned it in for the standard TV shows and turned it way up for PPVs (which has to happen as I know some of the classics coming up). Because the roster was quite small, you do see guys quite a lot. I feel like I've seen loads of Austin, Bret, Rock, Mankind, Fake Diesel/Ramon, Undertaker, Vader etc. already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    At this point in time, things were changing and practically everyone was given some shade of grey to their character. Babyfaces like Taker, Sid, Bret, and Michaels were given an edge while heels like Austin and British Bulldog were given some sympathy whether directly or because they're in a feud with a wrestler that is acting more like a heel.

    Owen Hart is your MVP in early 1997. He had a really good match with Mankind on Raw, a pair of great matches with Bulldog, some good matches with Bulldog against Furnas/Lafon, ect.
    Owen to me feels like that "solid hand" character so far. A guy who has a character and can wrestle well. Nothing has been spectacular, either on the mic or in the ring, but he'd potentially be behind Austin and HBK in my "all round skills" bracket if I'm judging exclusively off of 1997 to where I've watched. This is all obviously in spite of my knowledge of wrestling. I was only posting in the surprising contrast to what I know/remember/have been told.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Vader and Taker ended up having a much better match at Canadian Stampede.

    Again though, Owen's your guy for someone producing on Raw.
    I'm a little surprised at how little Vader seems to do. He was my favourite as a kid, although arguably that could entirely be because of his moonsault in In Your House 96 on PS1. He doesn't really sell, but they haven't given his character a lot of offensive opportunities so you're kind of wondering what his purpose is. He's losing, but because he's not selling it looks like he's losing very weakly.

    I think Austin is also a guy who seems to treat Raw like an opportunity. Because I don't remember this version of him as much, I'm surprised at how agile he is and the amount of effort he puts in. He has all the methodical nature of a Randy Orton, but the engine and aggressiveness of a Kurt Angle. I know he always describes himself as a good technical wrestler but I think this incarnation is often a gap in the stories. He's not JUST a "solid technical wrestler" here, but he's also not the guy who went on to be the legend yet. He's top tier but I feel he or others maybe don't discuss this timeline as much for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Depending on where you're at, Rocky may have not even won the IC Title yet. The real hate doesn't come until he's been champion for a little bit.
    I thought the story was he debuted as Rocky Maivia and the crowd instantly hated his guts. He was a face who was so despised by the crowd immediately that he had to turn heel. That's kind of what legend has told me, but here it looks like he's very accepted (other than a few girls front row at Shotgun Saturday Night). I remember his NOD run and how hated he was then, but that was by design, not by rejection as I often hear.
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  18. #3978
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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Separate from the above, I've been watching a bit of the Miz / Ryback etc. Tough Enough and I can't help but think everyone missed such a huge opportunity. It's pro wrestling, why not go all in on playing your character? Instead of "calling out The Big Show" like you're told to, why not be a cowardly heel? Try to ask him to join your tag team? When they did the body slam challenge and Big Show half goes to hook the guy, he dodges it. Granted it'd be very hard to see that coming, but how awesome would it have been if he got "ko punched" right there? Sell the move 100% and make Big Show look like a gangster? These guys went in with the mentality of being world champions, when they should have went in with the mentality of being valuable assets. Miz did get it to a degree which shows how he got where he did.

    Also it's pretty awful as an MMA fan watching back at the potential of Daniel Puder. Kurt Angle was asking for it 100%, but Daniel just had to take a second to realize that egos in pro wrestling are fragile as hell. You can't just show up one of the top guys in an unscripted storyline. If he'd only whispered something like "Angle slam" or "Ankle lock" and let Angle actually do a move and finish, he might have created a big ally in the business and went on to great things. I guess as far as one mistakes costing you everything goes, losing your shot at WWE is a lot less than being stabbed by New Jack so maybe he got off lightly haha.
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  19. #3979

    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by boyka View Post
    About the first 12 shows or something. .
    I was kinda hoping for specifics.

    I'm a little surprised at how little Vader seems to do. He was my favourite as a kid, although arguably that could entirely be because of his moonsault in In Your House 96 on PS1. He doesn't really sell, but they haven't given his character a lot of offensive opportunities so you're kind of wondering what his purpose is. He's losing, but because he's not selling it looks like he's losing very weakly.
    If you want someone who sells, Vader isn't your guys. That was his strength though, he was a bad ass who you couldn't hurt. Due to this, when he would sell, it would be a bigger deal. This is 1997 though, his already disappointing WWE run is only going to get worse with the booking. He has one highlight with the Taker Canadian Stampede match, but otherwise, WWE quickly learned that they didn't know how to book him.

    I think Austin is also a guy who seems to treat Raw like an opportunity. Because I don't remember this version of him as much, I'm surprised at how agile he is and the amount of effort he puts in. He has all the methodical nature of a Randy Orton, but the engine and aggressiveness of a Kurt Angle. I know he always describes himself as a good technical wrestler but I think this incarnation is often a gap in the stories. He's not JUST a "solid technical wrestler" here, but he's also not the guy who went on to be the legend yet. He's top tier but I feel he or others maybe don't discuss this timeline as much for him.
    Austin was a very different worker pre-Summerslam 1997. After the broken neck, he was forced to become more of a brawler to allow his body to continue for as long as he was able to continue. I'd agree that this is a different Austin from what he was before and after. He's still able to move around and be a complete wrestler, unlike post-Summerslam, but he's finding his voice that he wasn't able to have quite as much when he was in WCW.

    I thought the story was he debuted as Rocky Maivia and the crowd instantly hated his guts. He was a face who was so despised by the crowd immediately that he had to turn heel. That's kind of what legend has told me, but here it looks like he's very accepted (other than a few girls front row at Shotgun Saturday Night). I remember his NOD run and how hated he was then, but that was by design, not by rejection as I often hear.
    Well no, the hate didn't come overnight. You need a reason to hate someone. Pre-title win, Rocky was just someone who the fans didn't care about. Once Rocky got the title and it was becoming clearer and clearer that he was being shoved down everyone's throats when he was still so green, people started to react. I don't think it helped that in the build to WM 13 that Rocky was paired so closely with a returning Rocky Johnson. That only made people believe that Rocky was solely getting the push because of his family connections. The time period is also a big deal. As I mentioned before, this was a time period where we were seeing a main event scene with everyone showing shades of grey. Clean cut, stereotypical 80s babyfaces were no longer seen as cool. This original version of Rocky was such a cliche babyface that he stood zero chance of getting over. In a move that seems so unlike modern Vince, he seemed to quickly recognize that things weren't working and pulled the plug on Rocky's push after a couple of months following Rocky's title win. Rocky's knee injury ended up being one of the most beneficial injuries ever. It was the perfect timing to get Rocky off of the road and allow officials to look at this failed act and sort out if there's anything they can do to salvage the act rather than allow McMahon to get used to Rocky as a failed babyface. Once he turned heel and joined The Nation, it's one of the best success stories as he slowly started to inject some of his own natural charisma and turned his career around.

  20. #3980
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    Re: Random Wrestling Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I was kinda hoping for specifics.
    It's been a few days so I want to saw 2 Raws after Royal Rumble, with every Supertstars and Shotgun Saturday Night as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    If you want someone who sells, Vader isn't your guys. That was his strength though, he was a bad ass who you couldn't hurt. Due to this, when he would sell, it would be a bigger deal. This is 1997 though, his already disappointing WWE run is only going to get worse with the booking. He has one highlight with the Taker Canadian Stampede match, but otherwise, WWE quickly learned that they didn't know how to book him.
    You can only put so much of that on WWF imo. How can your attitude be "I either have offence or I look bad. Either way I'm not selling". If he's booked to lose, the match still has to look good. He's in a decent position where I'm watching but I wouldn't in a million years consider giving him any form of further push based on his performances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Austin was a very different worker pre-Summerslam 1997. After the broken neck, he was forced to become more of a brawler to allow his body to continue for as long as he was able to continue. I'd agree that this is a different Austin from what he was before and after. He's still able to move around and be a complete wrestler, unlike post-Summerslam, but he's finding his voice that he wasn't able to have quite as much when he was in WCW.
    I wasn't actually aware the broken neck came after where I'm watching. I assumed before. I guess now that I think about it the stipulations only make sense being after. Shame he couldn't go like he did because he was so, so good at this time. That's not to say he isn't joint first my favourite wrestler regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    IWell no, the hate didn't come overnight. You need a reason to hate someone. Pre-title win, Rocky was just someone who the fans didn't care about. Once Rocky got the title and it was becoming clearer and clearer that he was being shoved down everyone's throats when he was still so green, people started to react. I don't think it helped that in the build to WM 13 that Rocky was paired so closely with a returning Rocky Johnson. That only made people believe that Rocky was solely getting the push because of his family connections. The time period is also a big deal. As I mentioned before, this was a time period where we were seeing a main event scene with everyone showing shades of grey. Clean cut, stereotypical 80s babyfaces were no longer seen as cool. This original version of Rocky was such a cliche babyface that he stood zero chance of getting over. In a move that seems so unlike modern Vince, he seemed to quickly recognize that things weren't working and pulled the plug on Rocky's push after a couple of months following Rocky's title win. Rocky's knee injury ended up being one of the most beneficial injuries ever. It was the perfect timing to get Rocky off of the road and allow officials to look at this failed act and sort out if there's anything they can do to salvage the act rather than allow McMahon to get used to Rocky as a failed babyface. Once he turned heel and joined The Nation, it's one of the best success stories as he slowly started to inject some of his own natural charisma and turned his career around.
    I'm pre-title win and I'd say the fans definitely care about him. He's getting very frequent TV time, decent cheers and the commentary team is putting him over massively every match. Maybe that changes along the way, but this face version of him is treated in hindsight like he was given go away heat immediately which definitely isn't the case. Instead of being rejected, he's been welcomed in to a degree very few every are. He was definitely handed a seat at the table, which is contrary to what historians present.
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