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Thread: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

  1. #3221
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Vice View Post
    Just have to ask if you’re potentially projecting a little bit here, as you and Broc went at it for a little before you bowed out of the game. Personally, I didn’t see it as him being an ass, so much as him being frustrated that I wouldn’t let go of the idea that he may be mafia. Anyhow, as Shade mentioned, we were both apologetic afterwards, so no harm, no foul, and I expect more of the same in the next game.

    Oh, and in regards to Shade, I’ll apologize to him for being a bit aggressive during those first two days, but I hope he realizes that it was just my way of trying to cover all the bases. Plus, he was playing kinda weird.


    Thanks.

    Actually, I was really happy with you being so unsure of me, as it provided enough seeds of doubt to justify mafia keeping me around. You’re the MVP of my heart.<3


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    I was absolutely convinced Shade was maf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tig View Post

    i dont like role claiming but i dont think theres much you can do. take the day of my claim where i was asked. i mean ... at that stage the gameboard is fairly filled in theres only a handful of players left who can be mafia ... asking for roles is probably the best chance of winning. idk. theres counters to this for mafia. i remember there was a spell of "taking out confirmed town" being the go to move for mafia. red and broc came clean pretty early and we just left 2 town to float through the entirety of the game. obviously this is hindsight
    I think you were stuck with role claiming because you hadn't been present till late game. I didnt claim at all and you had to claim before I even got confirmed iirc. Mass claiming is tough 100% but being a presence from day one helps avoid people putting pressure on you to claim. We couldnt make anything of you because you werent available, at that point, the best recourse is to force you to claim but even then no claim was going to save you because the numbers had widdled down. The earlier you're a presence, the more you can shape & control the narrative of the game.


  2. #3222
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    A few comments:
    The timing of Shake mentioning Bro and me posting right after was truly a coincidence. There wasn't much in the way of Chatzy "hey you need to respond" except Sayer asking Tig to become more active.

    Role claiming is absolutely an issue. It's just not the way the game should be played, IMO. It's not really coming from the place of a "oh, we would've won without it" or a "oh, the mafia are at a disadvantage." Those are likely true, but mafia can prepare for it ahead of time.

    I think it's more about the ethos of the game. Good players win mafia in the thread, not in PMs. I think doing the "alright, everyone claim your role" is like a half and half of that where you're bringing PMs into the thread. It's a copout tactic. It diminishes the challenge of the game and turns it into a weeding-out process rather than trying to make actual reads based on the totality of the game. Basically, it skirts the challenge of the town actually trying to figure it out based on what someone says and how they act/vote, and turns the game into a battle of musical chairs where the last person left standing is the person who hasn't claimed. Or if mafia tries to claim and they're countered, it's a game of two people sitting on the same chair and the town just takes a "Vote A, if not A, then B" approach. Which is also massively simplistic.

    Role claiming as cop is probably within the parameters. You're role claiming to provide information about another player in the game. Same for role blocker, I guess. But role claiming to say "I protect two characters" or "I can't die" or any number of other things just cheapens the game IMO.

    There's not much mods can do about it because everyone at this point expects there to be a lot of roles and some fun/unique concepts within roles. And half the fun of moderating is making up some fun roles. So it's not at all on the mods to police or block. Just seems like role claiming is move the town makes when the town can't figure it out otherwise. I never really liked role claiming, but I never saw it completely overturn a game in a way before. Or maybe that's just the "it happened to me so I can see it better" bias. Either way, I absolutely think it cheapens the game. And cheapened this game, unfortunately. Because I honestly only think a few townies actually played well (i.e., put a player's suspicions/defendings/voting/theories together and had suspicions based on those posts). The rest just relied on "who claimed which role?", which isn't that impressive tbh. No offense, it just isn't.

    We're talking about ethics, not rules, so there will be some subjectivity to it. No fact or fiction here. Just perspective.



    Lastly, props to Fuji for being so active with a Vanilla Ice Cream role.
    Last edited by The Golden One; 02-02-2021 at 11:23 AM.



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  3. #3223
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by The Golden One View Post
    A few comments:
    The timing of Shake mentioning Bro and me posting right after was truly a coincidence. There wasn't much in the way of Chatzy "hey you need to respond" except Sayer asking Tig to become more active.

    Role claiming is absolutely an issue. It's just not the way the game should be played, IMO. It's not really coming from the place of a "oh, we would've won without it" or a "oh, the mafia are at a disadvantage." Those are likely true, but mafia can prepare for it ahead of time.

    I think it's more about the ethos of the game. Good players win mafia in the thread, not in PMs. I think doing the "alright, everyone claim your role" is like a half and half of that where you're bringing PMs into the thread. It's a copout tactic. It diminishes the challenge of the game and turns it into a weeding-out process rather than trying to make actual reads based on the totality of the game. Basically, it skirts the challenge of the town actually trying to figure it out based on what someone says and how they act/vote, and turns the game into a battle of musical chairs where the last person left standing is the person who hasn't claimed. Or if mafia tries to claim and they're countered, it's a game of two people sitting on the same chair and the town just takes a "Vote A, if not A, then B" approach. Which is also massively simplistic.

    Role claiming as cop is probably within the parameters. You're role claiming to provide information about another player in the game. Same for role blocker, I guess. But role claiming to say "I protect two characters" or "I can't die" or any number of other things just cheapens the game IMO.

    There's not much mods can do about it because everyone at this point expects there to be a lot of roles and some fun/unique concepts within roles. And half the fun of moderating is making up some fun roles. So it's not at all on the mods to police or block. Just seems like role claiming is move the town makes when the town can't figure it out otherwise. I never really liked role claiming, but I never saw it completely overturn a game in a way before. Or maybe that's just the "it happened to me so I can see it better" bias. Either way, I absolutely think it cheapens the game. And cheapened this game, unfortunately. Because I honestly only think a few townies actually played well (i.e., put posts together and had suspicions based on posts in the thread). The rest just relied on "who claimed which role?", which isn't that impressive tbh. No offense, it just isn't.

    We're talking about ethics, not rules, so there will be some subjectivity to it. No fact or fiction here. Just perspective.
    I agree with this. Having been in a position where I've been town and lynched because I had an obscure role, mafia without anything good to claim and a mod who (albeit by my own hand) didn't get to see my game play out to what I felt was its full potential due to POE (again, I was the one that designed the game to be like how it was, so I cannot really blame the players), I can definitely get behind the thinking that role claiming does and can cheapen the game. I do think that Silk not publishing full roles did mitigate that to an extent in this game.

    In terms of how to combat it, I think a lot of the time the mod's hands are tied. Do they modkill for unnecessary role claiming? That can't be policed at all really because it is extremely judgmental and I think if no one claimed any sort of role the mafia kill each night would be a shot in the dark based on not much. I think a way to do it would either make the majority of players vanilla, or give everyone an out there role so the majority of claims can be town or mafia.

    I definitely enjoyed this game when I was in it because aside from the twins, OMB, Shawn, Sayer and Mitch, there wasn't much role claiming whilst I was still active, so it was primarily based on reads and gameplay. None of the roles claimed were alignment indicative, either.




  4. #3224
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Role claiming isn't as big of an issue as it used to be tbh. I think we've gotten better with it. I remember (I think it was Goonies) a game where I got copped N1, and everyone mass claimed D2 and it was game over because we had nothing to claim.

    If we continue to run games the same way we have historically, it won't go away fully. But any of the following set ups would mitigate it:

    1. Everyone is vanilla except cop/doc/gf

    2. Do a fantasy draft like we did for Simpsons 2/3

    3. Mod gives mafia something to claim. Like, "hey guys, there's no miller, lie detector, or grave digger in this game... Feel free to claim those"







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  5. #3225
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro View Post
    It's all my fault. Kudos to TGO for replacing me, but it's hard when you have to read through so many pages. I feel like the mafia bros were already behind, because of me. Apologies to Tig and Sayer, but life is life, there was nothing I can do to be more involved when I really didn't have more than 5 minutes a day. Congrats to town. I read parts of the game, they played really well. I didn't like Broc Lobster's personality in this game. He was an ass hole to Fiji when not needed.
    Your issue with me has nothing to do with Fuji. Its because of what I said to you. Which is funny, because what I said to you was literally quoting what you said to me in the previous game. Some great irony there

  6. #3226
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    Role claiming isn't as big of an issue as it used to be tbh. I think we've gotten better with it. I remember (I think it was Goonies) a game where I got copped N1, and everyone mass claimed D2 and it was game over because we had nothing to claim.

    If we continue to run games the same way we have historically, it won't go away fully. But any of the following set ups would mitigate it:

    1. Everyone is vanilla except cop/doc/gf

    2. Do a fantasy draft like we did for Simpsons 2/3

    3. Mod gives mafia something to claim. Like, "hey guys, there's no miller, lie detector, or grave digger in this game... Feel free to claim those"
    We were doing more of these for a while & personally I love them. I also understand part of the fun of being a mod is the creativity of balancing. Still very much love the simplicity of a 75% vanilla game where you just have to rely on how people post.


  7. #3227
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Broc Lobster View Post
    Your issue with me has nothing to do with Fuji. Its because of what I said to you. Which is funny, because what I said to you was literally quoting what you said to me in the previous game. Some great irony there
    If this is referring to you calling him out for being inactive when he called you out for being inactive, Bro gotta just take a step back and take the L.


  8. #3228
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    I just wanted to say that I felt this was Jon's best game by far. Especially on the last day, when we tried to zig zag, Jon was cutting us off at every turn.

  9. #3229
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    I still wish I was really Mafia after my "Mafia claim" on day 1.

  10. #3230
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by RED View Post
    I still wish I was really Mafia after my "Mafia claim" on day 1.
    Me too!


  11. #3231

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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    Truthfully I didn't like it at all. I felt it put town at a disadvantage because if cop or doc die early, town wouldn't know and mafia could luck into an easy claim. It puts mafia at a disadvantage because they don't actually know who they killed. So they may play differently than they would if roles were revealed like normal.

    But that's just my two cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by noJ View Post
    In the case of this game, while there was no role reveal, Silk did still state people's titles. It fairly easy to see who was who. So if Shake died = Cop, if I died = Healer and when Sayer died = GF. Roles like "mother" were more ambiguous but a lot of people had generally good ideas of what it might be. This was a 'soft role reveal' more than it was no role reveal. It also added more value to the role cop's abilities.
    Jon hit the nail on the head. The 'essential' roles were still called Cop, Role Cop, Healer, Role Blocker, and Godfather. I wanted each side to be able to know when those big targets went down, while creating some mystery when other roles went.


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  12. #3232
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    Re: Supernatural: The Cursed Deck - a MAFIA Epilogue

    Quote Originally Posted by noJ View Post
    If this is referring to you calling him out for being inactive when he called you out for being inactive, Bro gotta just take a step back and take the L.
    I was not calling him out for being inactive. I was calling him out for not fighting until the end and giving up too easy when he was about to be killed. He called me out for being inactive though. Big difference.

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