View Poll Results: Who will leave Wrestle Kingdom 13 as IWGP Heavyweight Champion

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  • "The Cleaner" Kenny Omega

    8 30.77%
  • "Ace of the Universe" Hiroshi Tanahashi

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Thread: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 13 In The Tokyo Dome - January 4th 2019

  1. #121
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 13 In The Tokyo Dome - January 4th 2019

    In a dream world yes, I would love for the juniors to be big stars and have an interesting division. But it's like me saying I want YOSHI-HASHI to win the title and main event the Dome. Realistically there's such a microscopic chance of it happening it's really not even bringing up as a talking point or discussing. It's simply not going to happen, they are what they are under Gedo. I thought for a long time that the division could be saved with a legitimate Ace but it's clear that that's impossible with how they think. This Dome match was a clear signal that they don't care at all and it's basically the same as ROH with the women, they have a half assed division in place to satisfy people who like this kind of wrestling and in reality they're completely insignificant to the main shows.

    More importantly though Hiromu is a special case as he could be one of their biggest stars if pushed right,, not completely dissimilar to NOAH having KENTA in 2009. He was ready and they wasted him away and although he was still much more successful than others as company Ace, things could have been a lot different had they done the right thing in the first place. Obviously the NJPW brand is much hotter and realistically no matter what they do with literally anybody on the roster they'll be fine, but I just can't wrap my head around keeping someone like Hiromu, who has shown signs of breaking out multiple times, in the Juniors knowing how things are and how unover basically everyone as well as the title is. It would be like if the Cubs suddenly moved Anthony Rizzo to Single A ball and kept him there and people argued that they need him there to help build up Kane County's chances for a title. It's like, what? Guys like Taichi and Beretta are irrelevant and could easily go back down without a second thought. Really the others besides Shingo and maybe SHO would be fine as career Juniors since they could never be any kind of player anyway.

  2. #122
    RainShaker's Avatar

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    Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 13 In The Tokyo Dome - January 4th 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post

    Oh yeah, that Ibushi/Ospreay thing isn't a work but Ibushi will be ok. Ospreay is just an idiot.
    Seems like it was infact the planned ending and Ibushi worked everyone with his selling ability. Which is pretty much what I thought given how badly they need Ospreay over as a legitimate hebbiQ threat. Expect a rematch.



    I personally find the Junior division to be interesting because it's a constant struggle for one of them to stand out as the clear best - something I think Hiromu was destined to do with his title run. Plus, let's not act like the Juniors should be outshining the Heavyweights... they're not the main draw to shows and they'll likely not be bigger stars. They can still be stars within their own right but it's clear that the entire jr heavyweight landscape of puro isn't as prestigious as it once was... but hasn't it always been the case that NJPW favour pushing their heavyweights over the juniors? It makes sense to me. They're not insignificant to the main shows... they are insignificant to the Heavyweights, their stories and their matches... which just so happen to be the main focus of cards because that's what draws and that's what NJPW promotes the most. Unless there is a sudden uprising against heavyweight wrestling by NJPW fans then it won't change.


    You're telling me you'd rather Hiromu in the position that Taichi and Beretta are in? He'd look like a joke and would be ruined. Neither of those guys are people NJPW is taking seriously as big stars... so why be hung up on them getting a borderline meaningless heavyweight push over Hiromu, the clear junior ace who was, clearly, the centrepiece of the junior division up until his injury - with his story yet to properly fully take off beyond the redemption angle of him overcoming Scurll, Ospreay and KUSHIDA. He's kept in the Juniors for the time being because he's a great face for the division and because it'd take years to get him to a credible heavyweight position. There's zero chance he announces a move to heavyweight and instantly becomes the focal point of the division - he'd get lost in traffic without proper momentum to lead him there. Maybe his injury can do that... but a junior returning from injury to move up to heavyweight sounds like a bad idea to me unless he's noticeably more built and looks like he could actually withstand punishment. Otherwise, it just seems nonsensical to think a junior could get his neck broken and suddenly return strong enough to compete with the big boys.

    There's no doubting he's a star as a Junior. It doesn't mean it'll translate to being a star as a Heavyweight regardless of the probability that it will. The exact same goes for YOSHI-HASHI getting good reactions as an underdog character. Doesn't mean he's going to get mega pops for winning the belt at the Dome. He gets cheered for the character he plays and the position he is in, imo.


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  3. #123
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 13 In The Tokyo Dome - January 4th 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    Seems like it was infact the planned ending and Ibushi worked everyone with his selling ability. Which is pretty much what I thought given how badly they need Ospreay over as a legitimate hebbiQ threat. Expect a rematch.
    How so? Ibushi did suffer a concussion (mild or not, he got his bell rung), and it could have been even worse. The only difference is Ospreay was supposed to know what he's doing & botched what was gonna be a worked injury (maybe even before the elbow). Good job. Of course there'll be a rematch, but Ospreay is still bad. I do give Gedo props for coming up with a great finish though and the idea will help him longterm.

    I personally find the Junior division to be interesting because it's a constant struggle for one of them to stand out as the clear best - something I think Hiromu was destined to do with his title run. Plus, let's not act like the Juniors should be outshining the Heavyweights... they're not the main draw to shows and they'll likely not be bigger stars. They can still be stars within their own right but it's clear that the entire jr heavyweight landscape of puro isn't as prestigious as it once was... but hasn't it always been the case that NJPW favour pushing their heavyweights over the juniors? It makes sense to me. They're not insignificant to the main shows... they are insignificant to the Heavyweights, their stories and their matches... which just so happen to be the main focus of cards because that's what draws and that's what NJPW promotes the most. Unless there is a sudden uprising against heavyweight wrestling by NJPW fans then it won't change.
    I never said that, but why can't they outshine the Jr. division of the past 20 years? The peak of that division in terms of importance was from the time Hiromu won the title to when he squashed KUSHIDA. Wonder why? But in general, I've mostly thrown in the towel on things going back to the good ol' days. I just find it hard to enjoy 50/50 booking in a division and think it hurts everyone but if that's your thing, I'm good for it.

    You're telling me you'd rather Hiromu in the position that Taichi and Beretta are in? He'd look like a joke and would be ruined. Neither of those guys are people NJPW is taking seriously as big stars... so why be hung up on them getting a borderline meaningless heavyweight push over Hiromu, the clear junior ace who was, clearly, the centrepiece of the junior division up until his injury - with his story yet to properly fully take off beyond the redemption angle of him overcoming Scurll, Ospreay and KUSHIDA. He's kept in the Juniors for the time being because he's a great face for the division and because it'd take years to get him to a credible heavyweight position. There's zero chance he announces a move to heavyweight and instantly becomes the focal point of the division - he'd get lost in traffic without proper momentum to lead him there. Maybe his injury can do that... but a junior returning from injury to move up to heavyweight sounds like a bad idea to me unless he's noticeably more built and looks like he could actually withstand punishment. Otherwise, it just seems nonsensical to think a junior could get his neck broken and suddenly return strong enough to compete with the big boys.
    I said [l]iIterally the opposite of this[/I]. Plus in comparison to those guys, who in their right mind would look at Hiromu & look at those 2 & think they should book him the same. I like Beretta but he's zip right now to NJPW & as shit Taichi is, he's main eventing a major show challenging for the second biggest title in the company. Hiromu's never main evented New Beginning or a similar show, & in your heart do you really believe he has the same upside as Taichi? More than Taichi (& more than Ospreay) is a big improvement.

    I agree with the premise of him not being able to just move up with no momentum, but you said exactly why I think he should move up in that after his return from injury he's going to have lightning in a bottle. Again, to sentence him to feuding with Ishimori & Despy feels like a completely crazy thing on paper. And who thinks Hiromu can't withstand "the big boys" of Ospreay, Ibushi, & Omega? Outside of like 2 guys let's be real, this isn't exactly the land of Hashimotos and he's wrestled Ospreay fine before. If it's me Hiromu's the last guy announced for G1 & he'll get the biggest pop on the show hands down when he walks out. The fans will buy it. Plus you can work an interesting cat & mouse match with the guys his size would be a problem against.

    There's no doubting he's a star as a Junior. It doesn't mean it'll translate to being a star as a Heavyweight regardless of the probability that it will. The exact same goes for YOSHI-HASHI getting good reactions as an underdog character. Doesn't mean he's going to get mega pops for winning the belt at the Dome. He gets cheered for the character he plays and the position he is in, imo.
    He's so much of a star as the face of the juniors that it didn't matter at all when he was out for 6 months, in fact there were record houses for the Jr. Tag League without him. The face of the juniors means literally zero to NJPW from a business sense. I think Hiromu can be a valuable main eventer, a hell of a lot more than Beretta, ZSJ, Taichi, & Ospreay! Even Omega to be honest, who wasn't cheered even after winning the belt. But even without a title reign, ultimately there's just no upside by keeping someone as a second class citizen if they're as popular as he is imo, run with him after the injury & see where it goes...he can't be worse off, even just working G1s every year would likely get him over in some form or another. And these other guys can do fine as the top star in the juniors and do just as good.

    Hiromu wants to be a heavyweight fwiw (my guess would be they all do but him specifically wanted when he originally came back)

  4. #124
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    Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 13 In The Tokyo Dome - January 4th 2019

    Except the elbow isn't what caused Ibushi to be injured so... how did he botch a worked injury when it was infact, perfectly pulled off? The ending of the match was always going to look like that regardless of what happened. It's disingenuous to pretend that Ospreay is to blame for Ibushi's concussion when that's not the spot where it happened (thus not deliberate) and the fact that injuries occur in a wrestling ring all the time. Ospreay most likely did not know that Kota was concussed during the match when you've got all sorts of shit going on in your mind. So, yes, I think it's shit to call him out about it when it's not his fault and I think whatever he's said on twitter has worked you since the plan of the match was to have the worked injury angle done anyway. Like I said, I doubt Ospreay would've intentionally harmed someone he cared about and bragged about it afterwards if it wasn't a work.

    I just don't see how Hiromu was hurt in the slightest by his booking at all. His shortcomings were designed to give him momentum for his eventual push to the top... which was cut short by the scumbag Dragon Lee deliberately injuring him~! In seriousness, I don't think Hiromu's star power was damaged at all by his booking and I think it was a story that people were clearly behind judging by how they reacted to him finally winning BOSJ and the belt back. I don't personally enjoy 50/50 booking all that much but I also don't think it's right to start saying people are dead in the water or whatever because they don't clean sweep the BOSJ and junior division for ages. I know you never said that regarding heavies but the fact is that's where NJPW big stars are and they have little reason to sink massive effort into their jr division if it's not the money maker and not what the majority of their audience sees as the main attraction. It's not Gedo's fault that the vast majority of juniors aren't draws - he doesn't dictate everything they say or do or their personas down to the finest detail. It's on them. Just the same as it's on them if the crowd suddenly becomes attached to them and they get mega over. You can't just look at all these issues as being solely to blame on the booker and the booking. The only person who I think has been a junior star has been Hiromu... and Gedo was clearly booking him as the centrepiece before injury. So idk

    Yes, I know you weren't trying to imply Hiromu should be in Beretta/Taichi's spot with like-for-like booking... however, the point was that Beretta and Taichi are just fillers in these divisions. They aren't being pushed as stars as any sort and whilst Taichi is headlining NBG, it's against the clear star in Naito. If Taichi wins and takes the belt then yeah, that's fucking crazy and I will absolutely criticise that if Taichi is more than a transitional IC champ following. However, Taichi and Beretta are just there to fill gaps and be booked as throwaway heavies. They're not going to be stars. So it's stupid to get butthurt about them getting pushed up to heavy and Hiromu still being a junior. Hiromu isn't going to be a filler if he ever goes to heavyweight and that's my point. It's not like every single heavyweight wrestler is more over than every single junior... so I don't think it affects the other juniors that much to see them moving up. The fact Hiromu hadn't moved up at all is probably down to the facts that a) he's not credible as a heavyweight threat yet and b) he'd be so lost in the pecking order it'd be a waste.

    Hiromu has beaten Ospreay, of course, within the realms of the Jr division, absolutely. Ospreay was always moving up to the heavies eventually though due to his height. But you think people would look at 5'7, not heavyweight built Hiromu and think he has a chance against the vast majority of the serious heavyweight contenders then idk what to tell you... because I think Hiromu, returning from an injury caused by a Jr, would be in for a world of hurt by stepping up. A guy coming off injury to take on dudes who are taller and much stronger than him spells disaster at sackerfice for me. Hence why I think he needs to be built as a credible and legitimate threat. The crowd will absolutely be behind him due to the injury stuff but I'm not sure how much it goes beyond that. That pop you describe sounds more like a return from injury pop more than anything else. It'd absolutely destroy the credibility of anyone he beats clean too imo. I don't think it's crazy to want Hiromu to return to be a junior... why would it be? He's the clear star like I've said and him as the Junior ace could do brilliant things for the division if given the correct story. The interest in his return from injury will have people's eyes on him and the division. And I want the division to succeed so that's pretty much why I would want that. But simply, to me, Hiromu to heavyweight doesn't seem like it'd be a logical or great story at this point in time.


    I have a hard time comprehending what you're getting at in the last paragraph... are you giving me evidence that the Jr division is increasing in popularity? So what are you moaning about with the division being dead in the water and shit then if they are drawing record houses for jr tag league shows, dawg? All that says to me is that the division is growing in popularity along with NJPW. Not that Hiromu isn't important. I have a hard time coming to that conclusion from that evidence. And you can't say 'it didn't matter at all' -- who's to say that, with Hiromu's presence, things would have been the same? worse? better? You can't and, again, it's highly disingenuous of you to infer as such. Beretta and Taichi are being used as fillers or transitionals rather than actual full fledged main eventers, Ospreay is over and will have his uses as a gaijin main eventer if he gets there, same with ZSJ to a smaller degree (I see Ospreay getting more over than him eventually due to tenure, looks and style). Regarding Omega... I don't get what you're saying because Kenny Omega is clearly over, is a draw and gets a lot of crowd reaction. He was cheered right after winning the belt, dude. The crowd was hot for him.

    Yes I get what you're saying about second class citizenship and the Jrs not being viewed in the same light as heavyweights by the fans... and that's just the way it is. Yes, he can absolutely go up to heavyweight and compete in the G1 and do all that... but I don't see him ever being able to take the main focus spotlight or stand out above the likes of Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, Omega as main event talents at this point in time. He has charisma off the walls... but he does not have the look to be a main event heavyweight like those guys at this point in time. Like I've said before, I don't see any harm in Hiromu being a junior when he comes back because it can only benefit the struggling division as a whole and surely that's better than gambling on Hiromu being successful as a heavyweight when there's a huge clusterfuck of dudes that he's likely going to get lost in.

    Where did Hiromu say he wants to be a heavyweight? In any case, does not mean it's the right choice or path for him. But if he wants it, it'll happen eventually, I guess


    Obviously we don't agree but I can't see NJPW ever getting behind Hiromu on a main event type heavyweight push unless he's actually molten hot to the point they can't ignore it. But having a 5ft 7, untanky dude be the king of your heavyweights would be insanity imo.


    tldr: Ospreay isn't a dick, worked angle, shit happens in matches you can't predict. Beretta/Taichi are jobbers filling gaps. Hiromu's booking was fine pre-injury. Hiromu too important to juniors to move up and get lost in the shuffle. Not heavyweight main event material atm. Kenny Omega got cheered and reactions alot.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 01-12-2019 at 08:54 AM.


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  5. #125
    Mr. Victory Through Guts

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    Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 13 In The Tokyo Dome - January 4th 2019

    Except the elbow isn't what caused Ibushi to be injured so... how did he botch a worked injury when it was infact, perfectly pulled off? The ending of the match was always going to look like that regardless of what happened. It's disingenuous to pretend that Ospreay is to blame for Ibushi's concussion when that's not the spot where it happened (thus not deliberate) and the fact that injuries occur in a wrestling ring all the time. Ospreay most likely did not know that Kota was concussed during the match when you've got all sorts of shit going on in your mind. So, yes, I think it's shit to call him out about it when it's not his fault and I think whatever he's said on twitter has worked you since the plan of the match was to have the worked injury angle done anyway. Like I said, I doubt Ospreay would've intentionally harmed someone he cared about and bragged about it afterwards if it wasn't a work.
    AGAIN I never said he intentionally injured him for some reason, only that he's sloppy and botched a move in that match and gave a guy a concussion which belays a greater point in that he has a history of injuring others as well as himself and then bragged about this instance on Twitter which was not cool, considering he also likely didn't know what exactly caused the concussion in the first place and didn't care anyway. Nobody knows that accidents happen in wrestling more than me btw, but he's shown little personal growth from really anything he's gone through in or out of the ring.

    Ospreay absolutely is a dick, for many reasons besides this incident and I don't have any respect for him as a worker or as a person. He sucks. (and I gave him his due last year for having enough good matches to cover for it, criticized him equally for trying to scam money from fans in his GoFundMe stunt. Can't say I'm not fair, but I guess you'll say he worked me over that too. )

    I just don't see how Hiromu was hurt in the slightest by his booking at all. His shortcomings were designed to give him momentum for his eventual push to the top... which was cut short by the scumbag Dragon Lee deliberately injuring him~! In seriousness, I don't think Hiromu's star power was damaged at all by his booking and I think it was a story that people were clearly behind judging by how they reacted to him finally winning BOSJ and the belt back. I don't personally enjoy 50/50 booking all that much but I also don't think it's right to start saying people are dead in the water or whatever because they don't clean sweep the BOSJ and junior division for ages. I know you never said that regarding heavies but the fact is that's where NJPW big stars are and they have little reason to sink massive effort into their jr division if it's not the money maker and not what the majority of their audience sees as the main attraction. It's not Gedo's fault that the vast majority of juniors aren't draws - he doesn't dictate everything they say or do or their personas down to the finest detail. It's on them. Just the same as it's on them if the crowd suddenly becomes attached to them and they get mega over. You can't just look at all these issues as being solely to blame on the booker and the booking. The only person who I think has been a junior star has been Hiromu... and Gedo was clearly booking him as the centrepiece before injury. So idk

    You're a little all over the place here, and I'm not sure how you can say they don't invest nearly as much in the Juniors, it's not a money maker at all, only one guy in the division is a star and he is pushed as the centerpiece and yet you can't blame Gedo? Hiromu's star power being impacted is debatable, but I find it hard to believe him not acting like a cat and getting knocked out by Ospreay and made to look like a joke wouldn't have been better for his star power. It really doesn't even matter on him specifically anymore, whatever mistakes they made, the injury will give him new life regardless and he will be as over as if he was perfectly booked.

    Ishimori is dead because he can't carry the division as he is, they had their chance with him and it's gone. You can't put lightning in a bottle back. Him not losing to guys like Flip and Kanemaru was seemingly so easy too, which is equally frustrating...honestly all of those mistakes were completely avoidable and served little worthwhile purpose to justify them.

    Yes, I know you weren't trying to imply Hiromu should be in Beretta/Taichi's spot with like-for-like booking... however, the point was that Beretta and Taichi are just fillers in these divisions. They aren't being pushed as stars as any sort and whilst Taichi is headlining NBG, it's against the clear star in Naito. If Taichi wins and takes the belt then yeah, that's fucking crazy and I will absolutely criticise that if Taichi is more than a transitional IC champ following. However, Taichi and Beretta are just there to fill gaps and be booked as throwaway heavies. They're not going to be stars. So it's stupid to get butthurt about them getting pushed up to heavy and Hiromu still being a junior. Hiromu isn't going to be a filler if he ever goes to heavyweight and that's my point. It's not like every single heavyweight wrestler is more over than every single junior... so I don't think it affects the other juniors that much to see them moving up. The fact Hiromu hadn't moved up at all is probably down to the facts that a) he's not credible as a heavyweight threat yet and b) he'd be so lost in the pecking order it'd be a waste.
    I really don't know what your point is with them because neither of those guys are in similar situations to Hiromu in terms of being one of their most popular stars and if Taichi were to win the IC Title that's a whole other can of worms for why that would be bad. Again, a much better comp is KENTA in NOAH last decade. You don't know how many people said that he could never be a credible heavyweight and when he won the title NOAH was dead. These kinda debates have actually taken place more times throughout history than you may think. The only time an actual division basically was able to be considered near main caliber was a VERY brief period from around the time of the Super J Cup to the UWF-i invasion's beginning and I would say the Jrs. have always been presented as second rate otherwise so don't think this is a Gedo bash. In this case I think Hiromu is special and no matter what they book him to do, there will never be a better set of circumstances for him to move up. Again, sometimes you have to go with lightning in a bottle when you get it.

    Hiromu has beaten Ospreay, of course, within the realms of the Jr division, absolutely. Ospreay was always moving up to the heavies eventually though due to his height. But you think people would look at 5'7, not heavyweight built Hiromu and think he has a chance against the vast majority of the serious heavyweight contenders then idk what to tell you... because I think Hiromu, returning from an injury caused by a Jr, would be in for a world of hurt by stepping up. A guy coming off injury to take on dudes who are taller and much stronger than him spells disaster at sackerfice for me. Hence why I think he needs to be built as a credible and legitimate threat. The crowd will absolutely be behind him due to the injury stuff but I'm not sure how much it goes beyond that. That pop you describe sounds more like a return from injury pop more than anything else. It'd absolutely destroy the credibility of anyone he beats clean too imo. I don't think it's crazy to want Hiromu to return to be a junior... why would it be? He's the clear star like I've said and him as the Junior ace could do brilliant things for the division if given the correct story. The interest in his return from injury will have people's eyes on him and the division. And I want the division to succeed so that's pretty much why I would want that. But simply, to me, Hiromu to heavyweight doesn't seem like it'd be a logical or great story at this point in time.
    I want the division to succeed too, and yet you just admitted they don't put nearly as much effort into the Jr. division and nobody is a star except one person (I'm sure you would figure Shingo into the mix as having that potential too tbf, maybe even SHO). So how much can they reasonably succeed under these circumstances? Because I think that's a big gap of where we're at in that there's a pretty big gap in our versions of "succeeding". Like I said, I believe in Hiromu as a talent and charisma to be a top star as much as anyone in the company right now and personally think they have Americanized things so much that the weight gap is much less of a concern for fans than in years past, even to a few years ago with Devitt. Nearly all of their heavyweights were former juniors and I don't mean as young lions either and really haven't changed much. Ospreay and Omega now have very little difference in size from their Jr. incarnation, Ibushi as well compared to his last Jr. Title run.


    I have a hard time comprehending what you're getting at in the last paragraph... are you giving me evidence that the Jr division is increasing in popularity? So what are you moaning about with the division being dead in the water and shit then if they are drawing record houses for jr tag league shows, dawg? All that says to me is that the division is growing in popularity along with NJPW. Not that Hiromu isn't important. I have a hard time coming to that conclusion from that evidence. And you can't say 'it didn't matter at all' -- who's to say that, with Hiromu's presence, things would have been the same? worse? better? You can't and, again, it's highly disingenuous of you to infer as such.
    And yet you could have said all this same stuff in terms of Naito not being champion and really many of your points against him as a heavyweight are speculative and not rooted in any evidence either so I will take a guilty as charged in that nobody knows for sure. My feeling reading the tea leaves is that it wouldn't have significantly changed one way or the other. If anything it might have been less had it been Hiromu instead of a fresh Shingo but I think he would have probably come in anyway hindsight being 20/20. The brand is hot right now, but I think Hiromu has much more upside than being there in rando multimans and feuding with these lesser names.

    Beretta and Taichi are being used as fillers or transitionals rather than actual full fledged main eventers, Ospreay is over and will have his uses as a gaijin main eventer if he gets there, same with ZSJ to a smaller degree (I see Ospreay getting more over than him eventually due to tenure, looks and style). Regarding Omega... I don't get what you're saying because Kenny Omega is clearly over, is a draw and gets a lot of crowd reaction. He was cheered right after winning the belt, dude. The crowd was hot for him.
    Beretta & Taichi are just midcarders, especially Beretta. But I don't think you can deny Taichi has a pretty sweet gig the last 6 months. If you look at him he's been pushed more than Goto, Ishii, ZSJ, & basically every other heavyweight outside of the main 5 and is now getting a main event chance against the most over person in the company. I think Hiromu getting these exact same few months as Taichi would be considered a logical build and something nobody could complain about, as well as being better than the Jr. Ace. In addition, yes Taichi will go back down because he really hasn't done anything of note with these opportunities but it isn't because of booking. Give Hiromu these chances and who knows what he could do with them? Him vs. Naito would be a mega match. I also believe the fans are much more willing to believe in Hiromu rather than Taichi fwiw.

    I agree that Ospreay is more over and will do better as a heavyweight than ZSJ is. Although I enjoyed ZSJ's NJC push personally I think being unbiased it could have worked a lot better and would if they did something like that with Ospreay later on.

    Omega was over when he won the belt, and that's where it ends. He was just a guy to put over Tana by the end. His title reign was very bad, although the company's hotness kept him afloat in Japan and things kept moving along well with the help of the G1. But I think even his biggest defenders can concede artistically it wasn't at the level it should have been and in America it way underdelivered.

    Yes I get what you're saying about second class citizenship and the Jrs not being viewed in the same light as heavyweights by the fans... and that's just the way it is. Yes, he can absolutely go up to heavyweight and compete in the G1 and do all that... but I don't see him ever being able to take the main focus spotlight or stand out above the likes of Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, Omega as main event talents at this point in time. He has charisma off the walls... but he does not have the look to be a main event heavyweight like those guys at this point in time. Like I've said before, I don't see any harm in Hiromu being a junior when he comes back because it can only benefit the struggling division as a whole and surely that's better than gambling on Hiromu being successful as a heavyweight when there's a huge clusterfuck of dudes that he's likely going to get lost in.
    Debatable, but reasonable thinking in all honesty. Not to repeat myself, but I do think he could be in that class, and that speaks to how much upside he really has. I think Hiromu is as credible, if not more than a lot of these guys at HW already, although against bigger opponents it could be an issue, but nothing they can't work around. I think his look is a star look. If you tell me Hiromu helps elevate the whole division I could be swayed but his past stuff really didn't do that...just look at how the Dome Jr. Title matches have turned out the last few years. Not his fault at all, and I do think some of the finger should be pointed at the champions of those shows, but mostly Gedo for putting things into that position. If Hiromu comes back and 7 months later he's in a meaningless 4-way 4th from the top that gets no reaction at the winner then I definitely think that's nowhere near good enough.

    Where did Hiromu say he wants to be a heavyweight? In any case, does not mean it's the right choice or path for him. But if he wants it, it'll happen eventually, I guess
    He stayed in CMLL months longer than he had to to avoid being a Jr. and a big part of his match with Elgin in PWG was a test of sorts for him as a heavyweight. For whatever reason he was put in the Juniors, though it's true talent don't always know what's best for themselves. In this case I would say it's justified to not want to be in that division with how they book. As far as if he wants it it'll happen, well, it didn't happen for KUSHIDA. (That really wouldn't have been successful but then again neither was his Jr. Title reigns so who knows)


    Obviously we don't agree but I can't see NJPW ever getting behind Hiromu on a main event type heavyweight push unless he's actually molten hot to the point they can't ignore it. But having a 5ft 7, untanky dude be the king of your heavyweights would be insanity imo.
    I don't buy NJPW playing by a lot of the old rules because they broke them time and time again and the fans don't think that way and honestly the height stuff comes across as grasping at straws to me. No matter if they're 5'7 or 6'1 or 10 feet tall, guys like ZSJ and Ospreay are not believable as pure heavyweights from a superficial standpoint and even 7 years ago the idea of guys who look like them being pushed to the level they have would have been comical. (Even in NOAH Kenou and Kotoge would have never been heavyweights longterm though Kotoge kind of dabbled in it just due to his style and charisma himself) On Hiromu I don't think he'll ever be the Ace or anything, but a successful career as a heavyweight that could burst into a main eventer? Yeah I really could. I think his run will be extremely hot after his return and sustainable. Of course nobody knows for sure, but we know that the Juniors are second class citizens, and that's enough for me to want to see the effort for more for someone like Hiromu. JMO.


    tldr: Ospreay isn't a dick, worked angle, shit happens in matches you can't predict. Beretta/Taichi are jobbers filling gaps. Hiromu's booking was fine pre-injury. Hiromu too important to juniors to move up and get lost in the shuffle. Not heavyweight main event material atm. Kenny Omega got cheered and reactions alot.
    Mostly wrong, some right, some speculation and editorializing or just talking about different things than I meant.

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