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Thread: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I'd say Orton was more popular in 2010 than Edge ever was. Certainly more popular than Edge ever was as a face.
    Probably closer to 2011 if we are talking about his big face turn around that time? When he stopped shaving





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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggy View Post
    Probably closer to 2011 if we are talking about his big face turn around that time? When he stopped shaving
    First Orton then Bryan. Facial Hair = Over confirmed.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeYourBooty View Post
    That’s ridiculous he was insanely over at one point fuck E&C were over as a tag team more than Orton ever has been


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    Attitude Era will do that to you. Godfather's been more over than Orton in that regard.

    When they were on the roster at the same time, I think it's a lot closer.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Haha, I'd love to subscribe to the facial hair = over theory, but I meant 2010 when he turned face after legacy. He was getting the best reactions in the company for a long time.





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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    I think Orton's theme even today will get a louder pop than most of anything Edge did as a singles star that I can remember. I seem to remember a good pop when he speared Bischoff and I'm sure there are a couple of others but the reactions Orton gets just by showing up say a lot about how big of a deal he is to the WWE Universe. As I said earlier I do think a lot of people have convinced themselves that Orton is not as good as he is/was because he's a known douche. He's had some great stretches in his career as Shock and Ed have pointed out. His feuds with Christian, Bryan, Foley, Taker and even Rollins rank up there pretty high for me as far as post-Attitude storylines. Ultimately though I think they're very close in how they'd rank. I gave the nod to Orton by just one point largely because they are close in most respects but Orton's going to be a guy that WWE talk about plenty even when he's gone imo.

  6. #246
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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    I'd say both guys are pretty similar. Very over, but never the top guy. Beneficiaries of the two world titles era. Similiar-ish tenure (ie more than a decade). Similar-ish kayfabe accomplishments. Seen as future stars from day one, and pushed until they made it. Better as a heel than a face, but not unover as a face. Injury-prone. Had some red hot periods, but with some dead zones. Good-great workers, but tending to work "up" to their opponent (or down). Arguably, both are beneficiaries of pop-worthy entrance themes. There's not a great deal in them.

    I think the difference is a) Edge's push felt more organic, even if it wasn't, and as such he doesn't seem as forced, b) Edge seems more likeable, despite being wrestling's Ross Gellar, and c) Edge more clearly influenced things going forward.

    With the latter point, you can argue Edge:

    - Helped usher the in-ring change from 1999 to 2000 as a part of E&C
    - Helped make Ladder and TLC matches what they are now
    - Was the one who laid most of the MitB tropes

    You can also potentially argue every heel now has to be a version of the "Ultimate Opportunist", although the degree to which that's Edge's influence can be disputed. What is harder to dispute is in 2005-07 it felt like every heel was trying to be "cool", and he was one of the few to get genuine heel reactions, and yet not X-Pac heat.

    Personally, I'm not sure what the arguments are for Orton having "left something behind" when he's gone. He's an amalgamation of things that worked before. Even his most over tool, the RKO, is taken from elsewhere. Even the "outta nowhere" thing was DDP's (and Kanyon's!) shtick before.

  7. #247

    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    Randy Orton was inconsistent in his career but he offered far more than Edge ever did IMO. More memorable title reigns like his 2007-08 run. He had way better matches in his career than Edge like his matches with Christian, Bryan, Taker all of which far outdid anything Edge did in a singles role IMO. He arguably had bigger and better feuds, I prefer his feud with Taker over the Edge/Taker feud. And unlike Edge, he actually evolving his character over time. Edge basically had the same character since 2005 until his return in 2010. Now that's not really a bad thing if it's successful which is was, to be fair. Orton switched between different roles throughout his career quite regularly. And as for Orton's not so great face turns, Edge's face runs are so forgettable. Whenever he was left on his own as a face, Edge was a bore to watch and whenever he was Edge was a face, he wasn't hugely over as one. You could argue his last years. He was very over in that period but in other times, he wasn't massively over as one if he was on his own. Orton at least has his 2012 run to hang his head on. And not only that, his finisher is so over that he can't use it without getting massive babyface cheers even as a heel.
    The only time period with Edge as a face where it just didn't work was with his return in 2004. The fans just weren't into him, but it's more of an example of the crowd not getting behind this new serious and angry Edge like they did with the jokester Edge. Luckily, the WWE recognized that there was a problem and once they started the transition into making him a heel, things got better.

    I don't get how Orton is known for evolving his character while Edge hadn't. Edge literally went from being an ultimate mystery guy to a vampire, to an over the top douchebag, to a likable jokester, to super angry and serious, to a whiney asshole, to an ultimate opportunist, to then just settling into a role of going back and forth between having honor and giving into taking the easy way out. Sure, did he change much after 2005? Not really, but you typically don't alter things much once you find something that works.

    Meanwhile, there's Orton. He started off as an unremarkable rookie, to a cocky rookie, that evolved into being a legend killer, he had a brief period of honor before just reverting back to being a legend killer, the legend killer eventually became more deadly, then he found some honor and since then he goes back and forth between being a heel and a face. I don't see much character evolution there.

    As far as your argument goes, I don't think it's the best strategy to bring up Orton/Taker vs Edge/Taker when the Edge/Taker matches are so highly regarded while no one talks up the Orton/Taker matches as much. It's not quite fair, but a far better feud comparsion that works in Orton's advantage is Orton/Christian vs Edge/Christian. It's not quite the same thing since the E&C program was just a midcard one, but quality wise, Orton/Christian absolutely smokes the E&C matches out of the water. Out of all other possible feuds, Orton/Christian works best in the favor of showcasing Orton being better than Edge.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Edge failed as a face in 2010 too. It's probably the worst time period for him as he was basically turned into a Cena rip off with horrible comedy.

    That said none of Edge's face runs were as bad as Orton's 2004 baby-face run.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Postman Dave View Post

    Random thought but interested in what people say. What specifically places Edge so much higher up than Randy Orton?

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    Yeah I also want everyone’s thoughts on why CM Punk is higher than Randy Orton and Rey Mysterio? I never voted for Punk, really shocked that he’s so high in this list.

    Mick Foley’s a little bit high for me, maybe 2-3 spots. Angle has a good spot at #14, seems about right. Bruno and Andre outside the top 10 is a bit surprising but they still have good spots.

    Jericho‘s one of my all time favourites. Expected him to make the top 20 but surprised to see him make the top 10. Glad he made it. Expecting Macho Man or HHH to be next.



  10. #250

    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaro View Post
    Yeah I also want everyone’s thoughts on why CM Punk is higher than Randy Orton and Rey Mysterio? I never voted for Punk, really shocked that he’s so high in this list.
    Just off of the top of my head, I'd say Punk had one of the most well known promos in the last decade of WWE. Far bigger than any promo by Orton or Mysterio. At least in Orton's case, Punk's best is clearly better than Orton's best. Punk's emergence and push up the card, especially when he never seemed to be very easy to get along with behind the scenes, greatly opened the door for indie wrestlers to get a chance in the WWE. Although I'd say Bryan is more of an example of someone who helped shape the WWE by altering the style and bringing in a bunch of indie talents, without Punk, I don't know if Bryan ever gets a chance in the WWE, especially in a big push. Say what you will about the "CM Punk" chants post-Punk leaving, but what are the chances that anyone will ever chant for Orton once he's gone? We already know based on Mysterio time away from the WWE that the crowd won't be chanting for him either.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaro View Post

    Yeah I also want everyone’s thoughts on why CM Punk is higher than Randy Orton and Rey Mysterio? I never voted for Punk, really shocked that he’s so high in this list.
    This one is easier. Higher quality of matches, way more popular at his peak (outsold Cena in merch for a period), his year+ title reign is more notable and memorable than any of the others, and still gets chants almost 5 years after leaving.



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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Fair enough, I’ve just ever been a fan of Punk. I didn’t mind him from 2006-8, post 2009 is when I started to dislike him. At work so I can’t do a long post. It will be interesting if Cena makes the top 5, he has a good chance of making it.



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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Post-2009 is when Punk really took off.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    This was my favorite thing on the forum for a lot of October and November, so please don't let this die.


    "The Golden One" Devin Golden

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Golden One View Post
    This was my favorite thing on the forum for a lot of October and November, so please don't let this die.
    One mention of CM Punk and the thread dies. What a suprise.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Golden One View Post
    This was my favorite thing on the forum for a lot of October and November, so please don't let this die.
    Appreciate it! This is 100% not dead. Things will be back on track very soon and the list should be concluded in the next couple weeks. I sincerely apologize for the delay!

    Quote Originally Posted by MC 16 View Post
    One mention of CM Punk and the thread dies. What a suprise.
    Watch how you talk about the 19th greatest superstar in WWE history!

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Saw this on Reddit and thought it was interesting for this thread after I dismissed Flair for this list because of his relatively short WWE tenure. I think it helps back up my claim.

    "Charlotte Flair has had more WWE matches than Ric Flair

    According to Cagematch, Charlotte has wrestled 695 matches. All for WWE. Ric competed in a WWE ring 677 times.



    Charlotte: 695 Matches, 430 Wins, 254 Losses, 11 Draws

    Ric: 677 Matches, 276 Wins, 390 Losses, 11 Draws "





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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    Saw this on Reddit and thought it was interesting for this thread after I dismissed Flair for this list because of his relatively short WWE tenure. I think it helps back up my claim.

    "Charlotte Flair has had more WWE matches than Ric Flair

    According to Cagematch, Charlotte has wrestled 695 matches. All for WWE. Ric competed in a WWE ring 677 times.



    Charlotte: 695 Matches, 430 Wins, 254 Losses, 11 Draws

    Ric: 677 Matches, 276 Wins, 390 Losses, 11 Draws "





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    In fairness, a good portion of Ric's WWE career was more of a non-wrestler than actually wrestling matches.

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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!



    I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving and holiday season and I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and whichever other holidays you might celebrate at this point in time.

    Welcome back to the Countdown!
    Are you ready?

    #9
    Triple H

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    WWF/WWE Championship (9 times)
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    King of the Ring (1997)
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    Seventh Triple Crown Champion
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    Triple H may just be one of the more controversial and polarizing entries on this list. Quite a few of you are gonna believe intensely that he's far too up on this list and I honestly couldn't disagree more. This is a man that's made his mark in WWE and will leave his legacy for all future generations to come.



    Triple H didn't make a huge splash upon first arriving in the E, but did have a unique and well-developed character. One you could really hate and root against. Unless your thing was hog pen matches and who doesn't love those? It wasn't before long when this future Hall of Famer had the WWE rocket strapped to his back... too bad his buddies in the Kliq leaving for WCW and a certain incident in Madison Square Garden put a stop to it dead in it tracks. Thankfully for The Game he did his time and did it with a smile. It may have taken him twice as long to get back to where he was once heading, but one could argue it was the way he handled his dues that gave him the longevity he'd ultimately go on to have. WWE knew they could trust him with the ball as he wouldn't simply take it and go home. While Triple H was supposed to win King of the Ring in 1996 he instead won it in 1997, but the interesting consequence of this was we might not have ever seen Austin 3:16 had this not happened the way it did. Instead of one star, we got two out of the deal. I don't know about you, but I'll take that bargain every time.



    Before long Triple H helped Shawn Michaels and Vince Kennedy McMahon usher in a new "attitude era" with their juvenile degenerate ways. D-Generation X may have been a poor man's version of nWo, but its riskier nature and comedic stunts pushed the envelope of what WWE fans were used to seeing it and it helped build a new audience. One that was once missing after Nitro stole most of the Monday viewer-ship. When Shawn Michaels couldn't go anymore, Triple H could have packed it in and resided himself to mediocrity, but instead he took the reigns of DX and may have given it a makeover more well-known then its original. We don't see this version on reunions or reboots anymore in WWE, but the H led X-Pac and Outlaws DX is probably the most liked and lauded version of the faction. The memories this 1998-2000 DX gave us are timeless and irreplaceable. What middle and high school kids weren't doing the DX chops to teachers at the time? Between the Nation of Domination parody that gets people's panties in a bunch today for its use of black face to the invasion of WCW, you just can't shake the ooey gooey feelings of nostalgia you get when you think back on Triple H's antics with DX.



    The Game was not one to rest on the laurels he and his best friend created, embarking on a new singles journey in 1999. It wasn't all smooth sailing from here as there were some bumps in the road like The Corporate Ministry, but by the fall the most peculiar thing happened, Stone Cold Steve Austin needed time off to recuperate from a neck surgery and instead of the obvious choice in having Rock take the mantel, Triple H seized that brass ring and made the year 2000 his bitch. The Game became the most reliable act of the year. His character, segments, promos and matches were all incredible and anchored the product during perhaps the hottest period in WWE history. Triple H and Mick Foley kicked off the year by having probably the greatest street fight WWE has ever seen or known. Cactus Jack and Triple H tore each apart and when it was all said and done, Foley really made Hunter look like a star that night. Foley was truly a saint when it came to Triple H that year. He also gave him the distinction of being his retirement opponent in a Hell in a Cell match a month later and the again at WrestleMania 2000, but let's not speak of it again.



    He did it for The Rock? Or did he? The end of 2000 heading into 2001 was such a strange point in H's career. Following a career high as The Man in WWE Steve Austin returns to find out who ran him over and while we were made to believe it was Rikishi who did for his cousin Rocky it was later revealed Triple H masterminded the whole thing to take Austin's place and blame Rock for it. Which led to some insane moments that included Austin trying to murder Triple H in a car in a forklift to 3 Stages of Hell to the one of the most fun parings ever in 2001: The Two-Man Power Trip. That's right, after all the vehicular manslaughter attempts, these two become a power couple in WWE. Unfortunately for us all he tore his quad before we could see the full realization of this dynamic duo. A lot of people give 2001 grief, but there's small period between the end of the attitude era and before the invasion officially starts where I think the product was the best it ever got and a large part of that was the odd duck chemistry of Triple H and Austin. They were stone cold killers to pardon the pun. They even mauled Lita with steel chairs! What a time to be alive. Again, shame Hunter got hurt.



    It's a shame Hunter had to miss the entirety of the Invasion angle. It's another reason that angle didn't seem as important as it should have. WWE needed its ring general. Thankfully for Triple H time away made the heart grow fonder for once and when Triple H returned from injury in 2002 he was one of the hottest babyfaces ever with the loudest pop I've probably ever heard. It's shame most of this run was squandered on a divorce story arc that also wasted Chris Jericho's first real run with the world title and a main event at WrestleMania X8 that almost no one remembers. 2002 is probably the most pivotal in his career once you remove yourself from pre-brand extension era. Once Brock Lesnar moves to SmackDown, Raw enters what is affectionately known by WWE fans as the Reign of Terror. Personally I don't see it. I'd happily take 2002-2005 Triple H over most of what came after it. Triple H was not that far removed from his 2000 ace period and could still go with the best of them and had character and promo skills beyond most of the roster that was still there. Austin and Rock were gone by the end of 2002. Triple H is one of the only main event talents from that era that still work once a year at that level besides Taker.



    Who can forget the year Shawn Michaels returns to WWE, joins the nWo, reforms DX and then gets his head smashed through a car window by his former BFF Triple H? Besides the street fight with Cactus, SummerSlam 2002 may be the next best unsanctioned, hardcore, street fight style match WWE has ever produced. This match proved Shawn still had gas in the tank and Triple H is one who test drove it to make sure it was safe. When you want a quality match in WWE you call either HBK or Triple H and in this case you had them both delivering. These two had an amazing year-long feud that culminated in the first-ever Elimination Chamber match and a 2-out-f-three falls match at Armageddon. I'd still argue that first EC was the best they've ever done. The storytelling of that match is made it so special. The gimmick-ness of the EC was still new and wasn't overdone to hid the flaws of the story. This match told a beautifully wove story with Triple H, RVD, Chris Jericho, Kane, Booker T and Shawn Michaels. When HBK hit that Sweet Chin Music and beat his former bestie to win the world title for the first time in 4 years, you could feel the energy. It was palpable.



    Reign of Terror? Who didn't love seeing the ultimate Evolution in sports entertainment unfold before your very eyes? Did you really not enjoy seeing Evolution in 2003? The Legend Killer's rise through the ranks with the aid of The Game and Dirtiest Player in the Game. The Animal Batista getting his first taste of it thanks to Hunter. Fans may have preferred the SmackDown Six and the Brock Lesnars of the blue brand, but Evolution was a pure staple of WWE and sports entertainment. WWE even had them appear on the SmackDown 1000 special despite never really appearing on the program. Evolution just can't be denied and neither can Triple H's legacy. I'll never forget the night Orton won the world title and had Triple H turned his thumbs down on him while Batista had him in the air or the Raw after the Royal Rumble when Batista return the favor on Triple H. The King of Kings may have had his reign, but he was always going to pass it on when someone worthy of it came along and he did just that. Triple H would do the honors for Batista, John Cena, Randy Orton, and even Jeff Hardy, to name a few, over the years.



    Triple H's career began to wind down once Batista, John Cena, Edge and Randy Orton ushered in the Ruthless Aggression Era, but that didn't stop him completely. He still climbed to the top a grand total of 14 times as your WWE World Champion. Mained a few more WrestleManias, had some compelling stories with guys like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk as one half of The Authority with his real life wife Stephanie McMahon. The COO of WWE's greatest contributions to WWE are perhaps his behind the scenes work with WWE's NXT brand. He turned WWE's developmental system into a global phenomenon where their TakeOver specials are often lauded as being better than the main shows. He also brilliantly moved them to the same weekends as WWE's big 4 events to give them larger crowds and larger than life auras. He's also expanding NXT into international markets starting with NXT UK which already seems like a hit. With WWE's future in the hands of Triple H, I think it looks bright and plentiful.
    Last edited by Sicario; 12-06-2018 at 07:26 PM.

  20. #260
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    Re: WC's Greatest Superstars in WWE History - THE COUNTDOWN!

    I think that's a fair spot for HHH. With the 8 guys still to come I wouldn't like him finishing above them. But he's done so much and been so prominent for so long that he kind of has to be in or around the top 10.

    His negatives (his constant forced pushes, numerous bombed big matches like Wrestlemania main events, and not being half as good or popular as WWE would have you believe) stop him getting higher despite his positives and accomplishments.

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