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Thread: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

  1. #381
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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    It's ridiculous that the 3rd, 4th and 5th biggest parties aren't invited to a TV debate

    Just more alienation for the people across the UK that are sick of the two main parties and the morons that lead them.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    It's ridiculous that the 3rd, 4th and 5th biggest parties aren't invited to a TV debate

    Just more alienation for the people across the UK that are sick of the two main parties and the morons that lead them.

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    Completely ridiculous when you consider how the Euro elections went.

    Was wondering earlier whether Corbyn stays on if he fails to get PM in a second straight election. Maybe that's the big endgame for the Tories?

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    If Labour lose another election he's done. You can't lose two elections and remain on. If Labour lose again I can see a major shift in the party's priorities like they did in the 90s. If they can't win two elections against this government, there's no hope.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Yeah, if he doesn't win this time he's done for. He's got some good ideas has Jezza it's just a shame he isn't really a likeable bloke on the whole haha. I think the Lib-Dems are also shooting themselves in the foot by going against the brexit vote, that won't win them any favours in the grand scheme of things.
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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    James Cleverly has had a nightmare day trying to spin the JRM debacle and the GMB fake interview. Got battered by Piers Morgan on GMB making a complete twat of himself, then got empty chaired by Sky News.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Yeah, what a fucking moron he is. I'm glad the media are really starting to challenge some Tories now. It was quite disgusting to read some right wing pundits peddle the same pathetic excuses JRM had for Grenfell. It's all very easy to victim blame and ignore your own shortcomings. Cleverly trying to say that the Starmer edit was satiricial is obviously bullshit Shit should be illegal. Or Labour should release the unedited footage to piss him off.

    Lib Dems would have a real chance in this election if Swinson wasn't their leader. Watching her trying to explain her brexit referendum stance vs her indy referendum stance is amazing. She doesn't have a clue when it'd be so easy to peddle the line that the Brexit referendum could/should be considered illegal vs the indyref. The spin is as easy as that. Instead it's the ole "Politics has changed..." line.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Anyone watching the disaster on itv right now?

    Corbyn has had a nightmare start

    Edit: now Boris is having a bit of a nightmare. Stuck on a question, bring up Brexit.

    We're fucked.

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    Last edited by Shock; 11-19-2019 at 04:46 PM.





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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Yeah, i didnt watch it but everyone I know has said they can't believe these are the two leading candidates. Alot of people are pissed off that the SNP, Scotland and Sturgeon got commented on but had no way of firing back. Total bullshithousery from ITV here.

    Seen Jo Swinson said she'd press the nuke button if she had to. No hesitation. Amazing. This woman was distraught at a squirrel killer smear story yet is perfectly fine with the potential of killing millions. Not to mention that a nuclear war would almost certainly mean her constituency is one of the first eradicated. Fucking mongo. The Lib Dems majorly fucked up with her. Yellow tories.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    Yeah, i didnt watch it but everyone I know has said they can't believe these are the two leading candidates. Alot of people are pissed off that the SNP, Scotland and Sturgeon got commented on but had no way of firing back. Total bullshithousery from ITV here.

    Seen Jo Swinson said she'd press the nuke button if she had to. No hesitation. Amazing. This woman was distraught at a squirrel killer smear story yet is perfectly fine with the potential of killing millions. Not to mention that a nuclear war would almost certainly mean her constituency is one of the first eradicated. Fucking mongo. The Lib Dems majorly fucked up with her. Yellow tories.
    The Nuke point is dumb. The important part is "if you have to", which no one ever does. The whole point of nuclear weapons are that they are are a deterrent (to other nuclear weapons....). You can't have them and say you won't use them, because then what is the point. Or do you really think Jo Swinson is going to start launching nukes around the world?

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    I absolutely hate the would you launch a nuke question. It's such a pathetic "haha got you!" question no matter the response. Politicians have been slated for saying they wouldn't use them, would use them, or even for staying silent on the matter.

    It's a non-question. The question should be "do you think we should have nuclear weapons, invest in further, or get rid of entirely". Politicians can make their point with that, without having to say that they would, in a ridiculous hypothetical scenario, launch a nuke.

    It's like asking the question, if China assassinated the queen would you declare war on them. The scenario is absurd. I'd rather people pushed politicians on questions that actually matter

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    I thought Corbyn came off better than Johnson did fwiw.

    Still have no idea how I’m going to vote. I don’t really like voting for labour when they’ve been a shite opposition and they are in favour of a second ref (which I’m totally against) but the pro Brexit Vote means I end up voting for the Tories and Johnson and risk making a career in the nhs even tougher for me.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    I thought Corbyn came off better than Johnson did fwiw.

    Still have no idea how I’m going to vote. I don’t really like voting for labour when they’ve been a shite opposition and they are in favour of a second ref (which I’m totally against) but the pro Brexit Vote means I end up voting for the Tories and Johnson and risk making a career in the nhs even tougher for me.
    This is why the Tories are going to win fairly comfortably, because a lot of people will rightly feel the same. The people who voted Tory in the past have no reason not to - they'll turn out and vote like they always do.

    Too many leave Labour voters either will go to the Tory/Brexit party, or just not vote at all. I don't see who Labour are taking votes from.

    It would all be their own fault too.

    If I valued Brexit over the rest of the issues, I'd be tempted to go to the Tory party just because they have a clear route and plan to leaving the EU. For me, strange as it is to say, I don't really care about Brexit much anymore. There's a million other issues that I want us to concentrate on. I don't like tactical voting, so I'm just going to vote the same way I have done for the last four elections and go to the Lib Dems.



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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by King Steventon View Post
    The Nuke point is dumb. The important part is "if you have to", which no one ever does. The whole point of nuclear weapons are that they are are a deterrent (to other nuclear weapons....). You can't have them and say you won't use them, because then what is the point. Or do you really think Jo Swinson is going to start launching nukes around the world?

    Yes, Jo Swinson is going to become worse than Kim Jong Un when in power. I strongly believe this...

    Obviously not for fucks sake.

    It's the fact that she shows a stunning lack of foresight and thoughtfulness about her answer. She is a MP for a constituency that is mostly against nuclear weapons altogether. And as I said, her constituency would be one of the first to go in a nuclear event.

    What is the point in having them altogether and not using then anyway? It's a waste of money. The deterrent argument is fine but do people seriously believe that we will get nuked without them? Nukes aren't going to get used against us with or without having our own.

    It's much better to open dialogue about alternative defence and deterrent systems rather than saying you'd happily kill millions if you had to. Use the question to make a different discussion rather than being pidgeon holed.

    ----

    Voting SNP obviously. Get Swinson out and hope they can continue to stick up for Scotland. Getting fed up of Labour, Tories ans Lib Dems telling us what's what rather than attempting to ask us what we want. Our say isn't more important but when people say this is a union of equals, you expect to be treated like one.

    No issues with a second ref. Public opinion changes. We have elections all the time so I don't see the issue with letting people vote on the issue again.
    Last edited by RainShaker; 11-21-2019 at 03:44 AM.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    It's just a game of who can make you laugh the most at the moment isn't it?

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Honestly, the manifesto that I've found myself liking the most so far is the Greens.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    No issues with a second ref. Public opinion changes. We have elections all the time so I don't see the issue with letting people vote on the issue again.
    I hate this line of thinking though. A referendum isn't the same as a general election. Yes we do have elections all the time but the crucial difference is that the government WILL change based on what the public voted for, there's an almost immediate impact to us having that vote and if we don't like how they are running the country, you get your chance to vote again in 4-5 years time and can base your vote on what changes that government has made to the country, did they break any promises etc. It's not a perfect system because of how Scotland ends up with a government that the majority of Scotland didn't vote for, but it's at least an attempt at democracy and a reaction to what voters have voted for.

    The first referendum however leave picked up the majority and over 3 years later we haven't even begun to leave the EU. To hold a second referendum just because a lot of politicians didn't get the result they wanted renders the first referendum pointless and frankly rips away at the fabric of democracy. Why the hell should I have any confidence that politicians will act on the result of a 2nd ref, when they've ignored the result of the 1st ref? Do you seriously think every pro-remain MP will shut the fuck up and just allow Brexit to happen if leave slightly wins again? Will remainers accept a 52% majority this time whether it swings there way or not? If leave loses this time you'll have millions of Brexiters bitch for years that there needs to be a 3rd ref. A 2nd ref won't solve anything in regards to having a split country when it comes to the EU and having more faith in our politicians.

    To put it in a way you might understand how i'm feeling - Imagine Scotland get a 2020 referendum on independence, leave the UK wins the ref, but the UK government use every trick in the book to stop you from leaving and delay the process for years because they're pro-UK and working in their own interest, not the interest of what the public is actually saying, and then come 2023 it's time for another general election where potential PMs say 'we'll have a third ref. on Scottish independence because people change their minds'. You'd get to the point where some Scots will be so exhausted by the dithering that they'd say 'fuck it, ok, we'll stay'.

    ---

    That being said, I'm starting to feel like Shock where I'm kinda over the brexit thing now and there's bigger issues closer to home that I'd rather see the government tackle. I feel the same way I did in 2016 that the UK has the potential to be very successful outside of the EU and that the short term dip would be worth it for the long term gain, however in order for that to happen you need to have good politicians who can build good relationships overseas and negotiate great trade deals. I don't have any confidence in either major party to achieve that, so we might as well just scrap that plan now and it's only out of a 'protect democracy' ideal that I'd want to see Brexit attempted now. That's a big part of what has pissed me off, Brexit isn't judged on it's initial concept of how well we can do without the EU, it's judged as a failure because no PM can work out how to do it.

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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    You read the real Labour manifesto and not the fake Tory one right, Dave?

    How the fuck is this shit allowed? Tories are getting closer and closer to fascism every day. Fucking scum.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RainShaker View Post
    You read the real Labour manifesto and not the fake Tory one right, Dave?
    Haven't had a proper chance to look over the Labour one yet. Like hell am I even looking at anything Tory written though.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    I hate this line of thinking though. A referendum isn't the same as a general election. Yes we do have elections all the time but the crucial difference is that the government WILL change based on what the public voted for, there's an almost immediate impact to us having that vote and if we don't like how they are running the country, you get your chance to vote again in 4-5 years time and can base your vote on what changes that government has made to the country, did they break any promises etc. It's not a perfect system because of how Scotland ends up with a government that the majority of Scotland didn't vote for, but it's at least an attempt at democracy and a reaction to what voters have voted for.

    The first referendum however leave picked up the majority and over 3 years later we haven't even begun to leave the EU. To hold a second referendum just because a lot of politicians didn't get the result they wanted renders the first referendum pointless and frankly rips away at the fabric of democracy. Why the hell should I have any confidence that politicians will act on the result of a 2nd ref, when they've ignored the result of the 1st ref? Do you seriously think every pro-remain MP will shut the fuck up and just allow Brexit to happen if leave slightly wins again? Will remainers accept a 52% majority this time whether it swings there way or not? If leave loses this time you'll have millions of Brexiters bitch for years that there needs to be a 3rd ref. A 2nd ref won't solve anything in regards to having a split country when it comes to the EU and having more faith in our politicians.

    To put it in a way you might understand how i'm feeling - Imagine Scotland get a 2020 referendum on independence, leave the UK wins the ref, but the UK government use every trick in the book to stop you from leaving and delay the process for years because they're pro-UK and working in their own interest, not the interest of what the public is actually saying, and then come 2023 it's time for another general election where potential PMs say 'we'll have a third ref. on Scottish independence because people change their minds'. You'd get to the point where some Scots will be so exhausted by the dithering that they'd say 'fuck it, ok, we'll stay'.

    ---

    That being said, I'm starting to feel like Shock where I'm kinda over the brexit thing now and there's bigger issues closer to home that I'd rather see the government tackle. I feel the same way I did in 2016 that the UK has the potential to be very successful outside of the EU and that the short term dip would be worth it for the long term gain, however in order for that to happen you need to have good politicians who can build good relationships overseas and negotiate great trade deals. I don't have any confidence in either major party to achieve that, so we might as well just scrap that plan now and it's only out of a 'protect democracy' ideal that I'd want to see Brexit attempted now. That's a big part of what has pissed me off, Brexit isn't judged on it's initial concept of how well we can do without the EU, it's judged as a failure because no PM can work out how to do it.

    It's somewhat of an attempt at democracy yes but the reality is that the system just doesn't work for elections really. And that same flaw is being highlighted in Breixt. That's beside the point though. I totally get what you mean but the fact is that public opinion changes on a regular basis with regards to many things. I'm not saying we should have referendums on everything but I do think the EU referendum we had initially wasn't explained very well to many voters plus all the other problems both sides had with the law and whatnot. I totally get the opinion as to why a second ref isn't wanted -- but alot of that opinion seems to come from the predisposition that remain wins the second referendum. Nobody actually seems to think about what would happen if Leave won a second referendum all that much. People say the remainers would just keep moaning but I really don't think so. A second leave result is cast iron and surely couldn't be argued against... especially now the reality of Brexit is out in the open. I don't think pro-remain MPs would be quiet about it but I certainly think a lot more of them would respect the result of the referendum. I consider the SNP MPs as exceptions somewhat for the sole reason that they're standing up for a pro-remain Scotland - they likely wouldn't give a fuck abou Brexit if Scotland was given some leeway like Ireland or whatever. That'd leave the remainers in England and Wales really and I think they would stfu if leave won in both places again.

    I disagree we haven't started to leave the EU when Article 50 was triggered and we've had our government try (and fail) to negotiate deals. There has been attempts to leave the EU and sort shit out but the fact is that the people we elected to deal with this are seriously inept at it. Not to mention that people seem to think the EU would just be willing to roll over and concede a ton of things. I do think if leave loses then, yeah, the argument for a 3rd referendum grows stronger and that stuff happens... BUT... this is all dependent on the idea that the 2nd referendum question is the exact same as the first. It shouldn't and wouldn't be. A second referendum should have layered questions or some kind of preferential voting pattern. We both know the issue of Brexit isn't as black and white as remain/leave. Anyone who thinks so is truly kidding themselves.

    I don't mind the comparison to Scottish independence and referendums here - I get the point you're making but both issues are sorely different. Firstly, the opinion towards Brexit changing would be likely due to how the government has handled it so far as well as how people foresee a post-EU UK now. This is true for Scottish independence obviously but we have no idea how the Scottish and UK Governments would deal with each other in the event of a Yes vote winning here. I don't think alot of Scots would turn around and say 'fuck it, we'll stay' if there was dithering going on. Just can't see it given the political landscape here but this is all hypothetical.

    Also I think your comparison is a tad off. Your example would fit more with the idea of the Scottish government refusing to leave the UK if we voted for it... which wouldn't happen atm since our government is the main driving force behind the indy movement really. If the EU was trying to stop the UK leaving then maybe you'd have a point there. If the UK government tried to stop Scotland leaving after it voted in a legal referendum then you'd have some uproar i'm sure. Nobody's in uproar about Brexit because the UK has brought this shit on itself. Scotland wouldn't have brought it on itself if it was the opposing government that was the main obstacle.

    Totally understand why you don't want a second ref and I get you're a brexit supporter but I genuinely do believe that the people should have their say on this shitshow once more after seeing how their servants have handled it. I would have absolutely no issue with Brexit if Scotland got what it voted for and was treated as the equal member of the UK as it's supposed to be. We're not asked what we want by Labour, Libs and Tories... instead we're told that we will deal with what we're given. It's bullshit. England shouldn't get to decide what happens up here nor should we decide what happens down there. I can guarantee you that the SNP/Scottish remain movement disappears if Scotland got what it wanted and the rest would be left up to yourselves. That's my idea of democracy anyway.

    I would be in favour of something like Scottish voters receiving a referendum question of "Should Scotland be in the EU?" rather than "UK". Same with England just having "England" in the question rather than "UK" and so on. I get that it's a logistical nightmare but the fact is that the political cultures don't match anymore. Do you genuinely want Johnson and the rest of the Tory roasters to run a Brexit Britain? Because I can say, without a doubt, I would get to fuck at the idea of Priti Patel and the other ghouls having even more control over my life than they do already.

    ----

    I am at the same point with Brexit and these issues. I have never seen the potential for the UK to be successful outside of the EU really. That's because this idea of a Brexit utopia just seems super pie in the sky stuff to me but I'd really like to know why people think the UK has this 'potential'? I don't mean that in a cheeky way - it's a genuine question. Maybe it's a timing issue. Right now, I don't view Britain as being in any kind of place to be breaking from the EU. The short term dip just doesn't seem viable to me when you're still implementing austerity and foodbank use is soaring. Children are going to school hungry and the NHS is struggling. This is supposed to be a world leader and developed country. This shit should NOT be happening. This isn't to do with the EU - it's the current administrations fault. All of this should be sorted first before any kind of Brexit is done. It's like doing things in the wrong order. It's like firing a gun before the bullets are even loaded.

    I don't view the current UK system as democratic right now so the idea of 'protecting democracy' is a little off to me. But that comes from being Scottish more than anything else. I can understand that point of view from an Englishman though given how England voted.


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    Re: The UK and Ireland Politics Thread

    Corbyn absolutely smashed question time tonight, especially compared to the disasters that were Swinson and Johnson.





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